The Death Penalty Debate, Part 2 Thailand.

Wow, I wrote my thoughts on the death penalty and knew it could open some debate up. I have had some great responses from people and I thank you all very much for your views.

I will address some of the comments in green font here and also add some more stuff as well.

Steve said, ‘I don’t think vigilantism is the answer,’ I agree as well. It would create chaos and things would get out of control. We do have to try and trust the judicial system, but what I detest is a murderer getting 20 years and then walking free after 10, this I cannot accept.

Also he said, ‘I do however agree with you that violent criminals (murderers, rapists and the like) should be eradicated. In my opinion there is no room on this planet for such people and why should law abiding tax paying citizens have to continue to pay for their incarceration for 30, 40 or even 50 years?

As long as we are getting rid of those that harm others though, what about the so called "white collar" criminals whose actions can create financial pain and suffering for millions? What should be done with these criminals who continue to legally steal tens and hundreds of millions of dollars from hard working people?

I have read many articles that state, seeing an execution through costs a lot more than incarcerating them for their entire life. California spends $114,000,000 million dollars a year on the death penalty system. I am sure back when they hung prisoners in Folsom Prison the costs weren’t so out of control.

In 2005 a L.A Times article stated that each individual execution from starting out to the finish, has cost the state 250 million dollars each.

In Florida, since 1976 when capital punishment was resumed, there have been 68 executions. But the following inmate has an interesting record.

Gary E Alvord has been on death row in Florida since 1974 for the murder of 3 people. If you click on the link you can read the summary of the case and all the motions and petitions filed and the case details. It is very interesting. You can only just start to imagine the cost this is on the tax payers. The lawyers are claiming, ‘he isn’t competent to be executed.’

Based on calculations, since 1976 and the 68 executions have cost around 30 million each. The cost of enforcing the death penalty is apparently $51 million dollars more expensive than it would be to commute all first-degree murderers to life sentences.

In the great state of Texas, the average cost of executing a prisoner is only $2.4 million, god bless them for keeping the costs down.

But apparently the cost of housing a prisoner in Texas at the highest security level, this being level 40, would cost a 3rd of $2.4 million and would last the inmate 40 years of his life. Texas has carried out 447 executions, way ahead of 2nd place Virginia at 105.

So saving money by executing prisoners isn’t maybe such a cost saving exercise. Again I don’t care of the costs, but the final outcome being the taking of a life of a murderer.

White collar criminals, they should be locked away to never see the light of day, Steve. I agree that these leeches are the greediest and dirtiest scumbags to walk the earth. They don’t care about ruining people lives by stealing their money on dodgy investments and so forth. Life terms with no parole and hard labour would be the best thing for them.

Smorg, I have never been religious, so never grappled those feeling you have. I like you, if a god is there, then why does so much suffering and needless killing happen under his nose (and for any fucker writing in about satan, you can fuc# off)

Smorg said, ‘I haven't a problem with there being a death penalty (especially to keep those already jailed for life from deciding that they can still do evil things now that they haven't got anything to lose). I think the tricky thing is in making sure that the system really does it best to convict the right person in those death penalty cases. Here in America, that all too often doesn't seem to be the case.’

Yes, sadly there have been cases where people who have been executed have now been found innocent. With new technology and the advances of DNA and other science things, what was supposedly proven years ago would not stand in a court of law today.

You can go to this link and read a summary of some apparent wrongful execution cases. And also this from a Northwestern Law, It has never been proven an innocent prisoner has been executed in the United States since resumption of death sentences in the 1970’s. But they say at least 39 executions have been carried out in the United States in face of compelling evidence of innocence or serious doubt about guilt.

There is so much reading out there on the W.W.W, I could link to 100’s of articles I have read over years and still read new articles all the time. I have watched many documentaries and one I recommend highly is called, 14 Days in May.

It follows, Edward Earl Johnson, a young African-American was put to death in the gas chamber of Mississippi. I watched it a long time ago on BBC, at least 10 years ago. Depending on your country you can watch this for free, and if you run a VPN like me you can still watch it in Thailand through places like VEOH. Or you can chance many torrents as well.

My mate Memok, ‘Whilst I don't agree with personal revenge I do believe in the death penalty IF the judgment of murder can be guaranteed. So many times I read of people being freed after 1/5/10/30 years because it was discovered that the person languishing in jail was actually innocent all along.’

Personal revenge would be so hard for me not to do. I wish I could say I would let justice run its course and so forth, but I know I couldn’t do this.

I agree totally Memok, the death sentence has to be used on cases with no doubt what so ever. I believe that only judges should rule on the death sentence. A 5 judge panel to hear the bare facts of the case.

Thankfully these days with state of the art technology, wrongful incarcerations will hopefully not happen; this was not the case in years gone by when eye witness statements of ex criminals and dodgy drug takers convicted people of murder.

Vern, this is why I love the internet and being a blogger, expressing my views. I remember the legalization of drugs chat we had, and having different input from other angles is excellent as it is an avenue to go down and research.

I see Vern did a post back in February this year on, ‘Why The Death Penalty’ and it is an excellent read and see his views on this subject. Vern suggests we start a worldwide movement as we both agree unanimously on the death penalty. Maybe we should open an execution chamber on a remote island and then put in tenders for executions at different countries.

Lawrence, it is a subject to get angry and passionate about so easily. Especially when the front page stories of newspapers, carry horrid murder stories and to what make the blood run even redder is to see pictures of a murdered child. It is easy to become enraged.

Lawrence wrote, ‘Brunty, I fully understand your anger and despair about these dreadful things. But in a way you answer your own question when you write:

"We do not need any person on this earth who takes the life of another person."
Because that's what you are asking someone to do and even offering to do yourself! I think we have to get beyond revenge. (To take the life of a murderer is not what I consider killing or murdering, but eliminating something that should have never walked on the surface of the earth)

The other thing, though it certainly doesn't apply in the cases you quote, is the known number of times that the wrong person has been executed/sentenced.

(Lawrence I have read so much on capital punishment over the years and in some countries, where the legal system and processing of crimes isn’t anywhere near an acceptable standard, there have been wrongful executions. And any wrongful execution carried out in any first world country in days gone by; though this is terrible we need to move on. Today the chances of wrongful execution would be very hard to do with the technology and forensics used)

For me it has nothing to do with forgiveness, or any god, but that somewhere the violence has to stop, and one place it can be stopped is by the legal authorities.

(The violence is something that just seems to evolve with new generations. It is taken to new levels and what would have been horrifying 15 years ago, now hardly bats an eyelid.)

But as I said, these are terrible things to happen, and symptomatic of a society where mindless violence is deemed acceptable by some people.

(I do believe it is a symptomatic problem and I really do blame parents and the upbringing of many children.)

Leoasia wrote, ‘Great post. Totally, totally agree. My own pet hate is how religious people use their faith as an excuse to kill others who do not share the same beliefs.

(The current murderous campaigns taking place across the world that is according to different so called higher beings (gods) is sickening. A reason I dislike religions and this makes me judge people just for being a follower of a religious faith that I wish would be annihilated)

For example, the Somalian man who had his 13-year old daughter stoned to death by 1,000 people in a stadium because she had been gang-raped.’

(In such countries, law and order is more of a kangaroo court. Old traditional ways are followed and accepted and while we all know this happens many of us turn a blind eye to it. In India last week a brother killed his 12 year old sister for sneaking out to be with a supposed boyfriend, He stoned her to death in an honor killing)

Here in Thailand, I was interested to note that the young man who had an argument with a bus driver a few years ago and decided to drive his Mercedes into a crowd of people, killing three or four and disabling the others for life - has finally been sentenced to 10 years in jail. It took two years just to arrive at this decision because his father is very wealthy. Disgraceful. He should have been given the death sentence immediately after the incident.

(The guy you talk about here in Thailand, I wrote on this in 2007 and followed it closely. I had threatening emails that I passed onto police telling me to remove what I had written about the murderer in his car and his father, who has a very interesting background and reputation. Here are the posts at the following links here and here)

Thaigolfer said, I agree with you that the death penalty should be used for clear cases of murder. But right after murder starts the more difficult part.

You would sentence the guy that killed a boy with his car to 30 years in jail. Well, what if he had double the legal limit? What if he was just under the legal limit? What if he didn't drink any alcohol but was using his mobile or just not being concentrated?

(These are all interesting questions indeed. I wouldn’t care personally if you were way over or just over the limit. Over is over and a mandatory 30 years. If using a mobile phone, a manslaughter charge and a lighter sentence, still should be jailed as the law and a life is taken away. If speeding ridiculously then 30 years if you kill a person.)

Accidents do happen, to me and to you. Usually nobody is killed but if a life is destroyed by an accident that's not really a reason to destroy another life with a sentence like 30 years.

(Accidents do happen, and these should be treated as that and I am sure victim’s families see this. I am talking about people who are blatantly breaking laws. As for destroying the perpetrator’s life, so be it as he has killed and destroyed many others threw his stupidity.)

I know that you prefer a hard line, but for my taste you seem to discern not enough between carelessness, recklessness and intention.

(A guy stops for a few beers at the local club, gets in his car and drives home. He crashes on the way and kills a father and his child. He blows .06 or just over Australia’s legal blood level of .05, he was reckless and careless but this wasn’t intentional. I still have no sympathy for the person as he made choices in drinking the alcohol and also driving. All these could have been preventable.)

I absolutely stand for a much harsher sentencing on anything done on intention, but on anything else things like circumstances, criminal record and character might have to be taken into account.

(I think that we as a society are too forgiving to offenders of all crimes, be they petty or serious. I cannot judge a person of good character if they have made such a mistake to kill a person through a moment of lapse, of stupidity. How could I believe the glowing references presented in courts from pillars of the community stating that so and so is the greatest person and is so remorseful. To me this is too late. The cjicken have flown the coup.)

It really is not always that easy.

Bob said, ‘Hi Brunty. The death sentence can only be carried out if you have a police and judiciary that is 100% accurate and infallible. There have been too many miscarriages of justice in the UK where, had the death sentence been applied, an innocent person would have been killed.

(I agree Bob. The cases have to be airtight, no doubt whatsoever. And a jury shouldn’t sit in judgment but a panel of judges)

Is the death sentence an easy escape for the perpetrator? If, and today this is a big if, the prison regime is harsh I would suggest that a long sentence is the worse option.

(I too have thought about, is it better to keep a murderer alive and locked in his cell 23 hours a day for the rest of his life or execute him. At times I believe this is the best as I hope it would kill him mentally, break him and make him suffer like he deserves. But then I also think that why should he go on breathing air, watching TV, getting an hour in the yard, read books and so forth. The victim doesn’t get this choice. I believe putting their body into the earth in the plainest of pinewood boxes is the best service they deserve.)

To all who have commented, I thank you as this is such an open topic and we all do have some perspective on it. It has been great to get insights from fellow readers, writers and bloggers of the world. Thanks for taking time to comment and leave me your thoughts, they are really appreciated.

I refer to the perpetrators, murderer as ‘he’ as it is easier this way. There are many woman out there in jails that I believe don’t deserve to be drawing breathes of our air.

Brunty